Stairless

Finished removing the stairs from Poire. Now we just have a hole in the ceiling waiting for a new staircase. Judging by the gap between the beams and the height of the upstairs we are going to have to get one specially made to fit. More expense, but a necessary improvement.

 5:08:00 PM   Stairless   

White Van Man

We are now the proud owners of a 2002 Peugeot Boxer 2.8 hdi, 330M bought at auction today. It was actually amazingly simple, if very nerve racking. I've been to an auction in the UK once before and just found it much too daunting and never went back. Here was much easier even though it was all in French. I can still hear those quick fire numbers rattling in my head, huit mille six, huit mille huit, neuf mille, vendu, and the friendly glowing LED display spinning round like a fruit machine.

The auction was open all day Sunday for viewing with the sale today. For each vehicle for sale they allowed access to the vehicles to check things if necessary, run the engine, check oil etc. The service book was available and they performed a a full controle technique (like a UK MOT) on each with the results listing all the faults stuck on the windscreen. Also shown was the estimated sale price and the 'book' value and whether you could claim back (our business can reclaim) the TVA (Value Added Tax @ 19.6%). They also provide a 12 month guarantee for an extra couple of hundred Euros. The only down side was an additional 10.7% auction fee on top of the hammer price.

We spent about an hour familiarising ourselves with the bidding process and then took our positions in the 'ring'. I sat on my hands daring not even to scratch and Caroline bid for lot #220, our white van. We knew it was going to be ours, we could feel it in our water. Well there was definitely something going on in our water. A shake of the hand and a couple of subtle nods of the head and bingo, Caroline secured the winning bid. One of the auctioneers runners releived us of a blank signed cheque and then it was off to the 'checkout' to receive the ownership documents and the keys. The book value of our van was 13,800 euro and we paid (fees and 12 months guarantee included) 10,200 euro (about 6,800 pounds) and we get to reclaim nearly 20%. Not a bad days work.

Let the renovations begin.

 8:21:26 PM   White Van Man   

New staircase in Poire

Emptied Poire of it's furniture ready to remove the old staircase. The current one is a little steep with some uneven steps, so this winter weare going to replace it with something more comfortable. Changing the staircase should also mean I can enlarge the master bedroom to include an extra window.
 6:52:42 PM   New staircase in Poire   

White van man in waiting

We have been shopping for vans for the renovation works. Builder = Van. I don't think we realised just how complicated choosing a van is; long, medium or short wheelbase, high or low body, load capacity, number of front seats, ... The only constants are colour and fuel. The most common larger models on the road round here are either the Peugeot Boxer or Citroen Jumper, so It seems sensible to buy one of those especially as we plan to sell it once the renovations are complete.
 9:30:35 PM   White van man in waiting   

Planning for the Fosse Septic

With the builders due to arrive in a couple of weeks we thought it was time to double check the plans, paying particular attention to waste and water supplies. The first job of the builders is to break up the existing floor and lay a new concrete floor with the necessary waste pipes buried in the floor ready to take all the foul water out to the new septic tank. The positions of the pipes protuding from the floor is critical as that is where the downstairs toilets, kitchens and shower will be sited. We have moved a few things around, partly for asethetic and practical reasons, so that necessitated lots of Tipex, redrawing, photocopying, moving cut-out beds and kitchens around etc. We also reorganised some of the upstairs rooms to make the path for the waste pipes easier. Moving one small thing has a knock-on to lots of other things. I wished we had an electronic copy of the original architect's drawings as it took an awfully long time jiggling about.
 8:59:47 PM   Planning for the Fosse Septic   

Roof and wall boundary

Note from Living France DIY Forum

Posted 10/09/2004 18:18

Hi,

In a barn I'm renovating for gites where the slate roof meets the stone walls (click for a bigger picture) there is a triangular 'gap' between the top of the stones and where the rafters rest on the wall. Also you can see daylight through the gaps on the gable ends.

I wanted to plug the holes to help with sound and heat insulation before plasterboarding. I considered filling the gaps with expanding foam but was concerned it may lift the tiles.
The other option was to mix up a lime mortar and chuck it in the space between the tiles and wall, but I was worried that it may draw moisture and rot the timbers or cause a damp problem. Do I even need to bother ?

Anyone have any experience or suggestions that would be helpful.

Thanks

Ian http://www.brittany-holiday-gites.com/

 

Posted 10/09/2004 20:08

I would not like to block the gap completely as there should always be an air gap of at least 50mm beneath natural slates. The air should be able to enter from the soffit level and exit from the air vents that are higher up the roof, (if you have had them installed).

On renovation works we  often cut chicken wire in a roll and wedge it into the gap between the rafters at wall top level. This stops birds and pine martins from entering the roof area whilst still allowing air circulation. If there was a wall plate we normally cut noggins to block the majority of the gap leaving a gap for air flow, which is better and more solid.

For sound insulation, if the roof line is properly insulated this should reduce sound anyway. There is nothing wrong with using foam filler but you will need to block off the top section to stop it blocking off air flow. Filler foam is expensive used this way and you would find it would not look very pretty from outside (looking up under the eaves). There is no danger from it lifting the slates and the system you have (stainless steel crochets on battens) is a very secure fixing system and the most widely used for slate roofing.

regards,

Paul

 2:04:55 PM   Roof and wall boundary   

Permis de Construire

The 'foreman' for the renovation works arrived today on a flying visit to nail up the sign with the permis de construire number and various other information, the local Marie, building surface area, contractors names etc. Every site has a board, I think it's a requirement to erect it 2 months before work commences to forewarn everyone, however he told us work will be starting in the beginning of October.
 5:27:17 PM   Permis de Construire   

Employing a short term worker in France

This is the result of posting a question in the Living France forums about employing a short term labourer in France. It actually turns out to be quite expensive.

Ianhaycox Posted 27/08/2004 09:01

I have a renovation project for two gites starting this winter. The bulk of the masonery, roofs, fosse, etc. work is being done by a French enterprise.

I am going to do most of the internal works and would like to employ a 'general labourer' for 3 to 6 months via our SARL. The person I have in mind is a French resident English speaker. He has a CDS but not sure what else.

I would appreciate any advice on employing someone short term, how to pay his taxes etc.

Thanks,

Ian http://www.brittany-holiday-gites.com/

Will the Conquer... Posted 23/08/2004 09:20

If this person is not a registered artisan then it sounds as if you may need to employ him on a short term (6 month?) contract. You don't pay tax, the employee has to make his own tax return, but you will be responsible for employer's social security payments which are very complicated and quite expensive (if my memory is correct something like 40% again on top of the salary, which for this type of work would probably be the minimum wage - SMIC - 7.61 per hour). If you have an SARL then you will already use the services of an accountant, who will be the best person to sort out the formalities, he will probably have the necessary computer programs etc.

I don't think the cheque d'emploi system, which would be much simpler, is suitable for this type of work.

I'm basing this reply on our past experiences (being paid rather than paying somebody else, and in a very different line of French business) so somebody with more direct experience of employment in the French building trades may be able to suggest something better.

Will (50)
Forum moderator

Ianhaycox Posted 27/08/2004 09:57

I'm trying to encourage my future worker to register as an Artisan but, judging by the excellent advice in these forums, I think it may take quite a long time.

I will be asking my accountant but it's still August and they are all on holiday. Before the meeting I was hoping to go armed with a basic idea of the options and potential costs.

Thanks for the help and if anyone else has any additional info to add it would be much appreciated.

Ian http://www.brittany-holiday-gites.com/

Val_2 Posted 27/08/2004 21:01

What you must do is get your accountants to draw up a proper contract of employment for a set period stating the start and finish date or else you could be in trouble with the authorities and the 'prud hommes' if any misunderstanding arises. Cheque Emploi is not usually viable in the building trade for a person doing a full time job (8hrs per day etc) and presents horrible complications with your accounts. The standard 35 hour week is normal, we do 39 and for those extra four hours we have to pay our workers 25% extra on EVERY single social charge and pay as well as the already hefty government charges on the 35 hours - so beware of this trap. If you have more than 10 employees you are exempt from this and it is still only 10% extra per hour.

Your man may well have to have a medical as dictated by URSSAF,they will inform you when you have contacted them re him starting with you.

Miki Posted 27/08/2004 21:27

Quote: What you must do is get your accountants to draw up a proper contract of employment for a set period stating the start and finish date or else you could be in trouble with the authorities and the 'pru...

Val,

I really do not think that anything to do with the building trade is allowed on cheque d'emploi.

It is and as far back as I can remember, a domestic "employment" with a bit of childminding, caring etc plus a spot of small gardening thrown in and not a lot more, to be honest.

Miki

Val_2 Posted 28/08/2004 07:30

This seems to be a bit of a grey area in as much as the last time about 18months ago when were advertising for another labourer, we had several people,all the wrong side of 50 apply and all were cheque d'emploi and it seemed quite normal to them although they didn't want to work full time - perhaps 25 hrs per week which is no good to anyone in building. Therein lies the difference I suppose between this system and a full time contract. In the event, I did query the system with our accountant who told us not to contemplate cheque d'emploi as it causes all sorts of paperwork problems with the authorities regarding tax and charge payments. After all the aggro we have had with employees over the years here, I would never ever contemplate taking anyone on now without a proper legal contract and straightforward charges,its too stressful.

Miki Posted 28/08/2004 07:46

Quote: This seems to be a bit of a grey area in as much as the last time about 18months ago when were advert...

Agree about cheque d'emploi, it is a very grey area and so I guess the sensible thing is to avoid using it, unless you are certain of its legality in the circumstances.

Miki

Ianhaycox Posted 03/09/2004 18:40

Spoke to the accountant today and was told that I can employ a worker through my SARL on a short term contract, but only if the work is exceptional, i.e. not regular work, my renovation project would be classed as an exception. Apparently the restriction is something to do with the way the company is set up. The total cost of employing someone 3 days a week (8 hour days) at the minimum wage of 7.61€ per hour is 1,117€ per month.

That works out as approx 785€ gross for wages (the worker pays any tax due in their end-of-year return) and then 332€ in social charges which my company also has to pay. Approx 40%.

I think I'm going to have to encourage him to register as society and then just pay any factures presented to me. My accountant says it is much much simpler, except he must not setup a society just for this job. The administration will not allow it. I suspect this is to prevent tax avoidance like IR35 in the UK.

Ian http://www.brittany-holiday-gites.com/

Pete Posted 03/09/2004 20:37

There is the equivalent to the cheque'd emploi service for temporary building workers. Like everthing concerning employment it is complicated and expensive. It is called Titre Emploi Service; my bank manager told me about it. You have to register at the Urssaf (or whatever it is called) and then they send all the details. Registering was the easy bit! Anyway it is nice to feel that one is the right side of the law in case of accident etc. And you employee is getting all their contributions paid.

All the best

Pete

Moorejw Posted 04/09/2004 09:46

The Titre d'Emploi Service has been set up to encourage small businesses to employ people, and it makes it easier from the payments and records point of view. I received a mailshot from URSSAF about it with my last demand for cotisations. I don't want to employ anybody else, but if I did this looks like an improvement on the previous process.
John and Angie Moore (17)

 7:52:12 PM   Employing a short term worker in France   

Woodworm treatment

Upstairs in the barn is one large void (15m ^x 6m) with old oak beams and bracing and cross pieces. As you can see it looks fantastic and I hope to leave much of the best woodwork exposed when renovated. There is evidence of woodworm on some of the structure, so just to be sure I have sprayed, using a garden spray, wormwood treatment on all the wood. I bought a 25L drum but ended up making an early afternoon trip to Rennes to buy another two drums. I've got one left for the ceiling beams downstairs. It was a horrible hot job, goggled and masked up, balanced on a wobbly working platform with a 500W halogen lamp warming the place nicely, not to mention the 200 m² of black slate 'radiator' above my head.

 6:31:54 PM   Woodworm treatment   

Gite Renovation

The barn due for conversion into two gites

The picture shows the initial state of a farm building, barn, that we are renovating into 2 new gites, or holiday cottages. We currently have 3 gites that are rented out, mainly during the summer months, but in order to make a living solely from gite income at least 5 gites are needed. The story is abridged until we get to the blog dated entries. I'll update when anything significant happens.

The process of renovation started in August 2003, towards the end of our first season. We had spent the previous 10 months working flat out to build a new business and completely renovate the 3 current gites on our own. It was tough, too tough to do again, so this time we decided to get a building firm in to do all the work, just leave us with the decorating and furnishing. It also means we have time for general maintenance, improvements and a chance to have a bit of spare time for ourselves and with the children. After all that's one of the reasons for coming to France, quality of life.

Before starting any building work you usually need a permit of some sort. The two main permits are the 'Permis de Construire' or 'Declaration de Travaux'. The best analogy is that the 'Permis de Construire' is like full planning permission, which may also involve change of use etc. The 'Declaration de Travaux' is for more minor works, ranging from new fencing, installing a swimming pool, and (in our case) new openings, windows and doors, in a building. A visit to the Mairie's showed our barn classified as a house on the cadastral plan. This was fantastic news, because that meant only the 'Declaration de Travaux' was necessary, a quicker and simpler process.

We set to work using Visio to draw before and after scale plans of the current building and the proposed gites. The drawings did not need to be that detailed, just showing the position and sizes of the new windows and doors. We also provided internal room layout plans, however these are fairly flexible as all the internal walls are non-structural.
Downstairs the barn is approximately 110 meters squared, and 95 meters squared upstairs. It's a big barn.

September 2003

Lots of discussion, drafting and redrafting. Eventually we came up with two spacious three bedroomed gites. We considered many factors during the design of the gites, expected business, occupancy levels, finger in the air etc. However much of the design was based on the standards as set out by Gites de France. Caroline had long conversations and meetings with Gites de France to explain our position and what we wished to do. They have a set of requirements for a gite based on a 'star' rating. These include the minimum room sizes, ceiling heights, supplied appliances, private terraces, noise and light rating for rooms, number of toilets, baths, showers. A whole host of specifications.

Being the best French speaker Caroline also met with the necessary people to enable us to get a complete list of regulations to help with the renovation. Along with Gites de France classification there are also a number of other restrictions which we had to meet. Planners are favourable to gites but they want to be sure it is actually going to increase tourism in the area.

Finalised our plans, based on everything above, filled in the appropriate forms and submitted them to the Mairie. We should get a result within 2 months.

October 2003

Asked three companies for 'devis' for the worked based on our plans. In France everyone provides a devis. A devis is NOT an estimate, it's a fixed and firm quote for the work. It usually details everything including a start and end date. If an unforeseen problem crops up then the cost is borne by the tradesman, not the client. It's swings and roundabouts but at least everyone knows where they stand.

In general there are not builders in France. Every trade is separate and highly skilled and qualified. Each provides a 10 year guarantee. You can employee each of the tradesmen separately, managing the project yourself (the cheapest option) or use a project manager to manage everything for you (at a cost). For us the latter option was really the only option. Chasing and organising French workman in a second language would not be easy. A project manager gave us a single point of contact.

Eventually we got various quotes from three different enterprises, in increasing order of cost:

1. A local English speaking general hardware store that do renovations
2. A specialist Maconniere enterprise who do all the major structural work but we would have to get separate electrician and plumbing quotes
3. A project manager who arranged for all the separate trades to come and quote.

Note - We have used individual tradesmen since, and their work has always been excellent. It's just hard work getting anyone to come and give a quote and start date. Everyone is SO busy.

November 2003

We arranged for the Septic Tank man to come and perform a soil study for the Fosse Septique for the new gites. It's now a legal requirement to have a soil study done to check that waste water soaks away properly and does not contaminate any wells or ground water. There are a whole raft of regulations around septic tanks.

The septic man was really nice and took loads of measurements, ground levels, soil structure, drainage etc. After a couple of weeks we got a very detailed dossier showing the planned position and sizes of the septic tank and the soakaway. In our case the soil had too much clay and we needed a large gravel and sand pit.

Bad News, our planning application was refused because we needed change of use of the barn from an agricultural building into a habitable dwelling. The cadastral plan showing the building as a house was either wrong or we misinterpreted it. This meant we were almost back to square one.

December 2003

The SHON (Surface Hors Oeuvre Nette) of the two proposed gites is more than 170 m2 and according to planning regulations this requires the involvement of an architect. We think this regulation exists because using an architect ensures that the building conforms to all the regulations. This is a bit of a pain because architects are expensive and very busy. There also don't seem to be many of them around the area. We arranged a rendez-vous with a local man but he failed to show up, even after phoning his office to chase him up. Not a good start.

Based on the quotes we got before we had decided on the building firm we would like to use. They where expensive but had a good reputation and a friend had recommended them. We had also seen examples of their work and had good dealings with the firm from our initial round of devis. We explained the architect problem and they arranged a on-site meeting and a reasonable price for the work. The architect would only draw the plans and submit the planning application. After that the builders would project manage the whole job.

The original local architect (foolishly we gave them a second chance even after the first no-show) arrived on-site and discussed our requirements. We gave them a copy of our original planning application, measurements, drawings and photos. They would do the plans in 'quinze jours' two weeks.

Two weeks came and went, three weeks, four weeks. Various phone calls with the architect and project manager to chase the drawings. It was always promised next week. More chasing. We and the project manager are getting a bit frustrated.

Eventually 8 weeks after the initial RdV we get an urgent call to visit the office and view the plans. We need to agree the drawings and any alterations and sign the planning application because the architect going on holiday. He could then submit the plans that week. Hurrah.

Caroline checked with the Mairie to see if our plans had been submitted. Yep you guessed it. Nothing. Again we chase once the office is back from their holidays and the architect has lost our dossier with the alterations. I know things move slowly in France but this is starting to get laughable.

21st April 2004

The architect, arrived at La Lohuas to take some photos as part of the submission. We had already supplied photos 12 weeks ago but either they got lost or were not acceptable. Submission planned for tomorrow.

23rd April 2004

Finally the Mairie has received the dossier today. However the word 'gites' is not mentioned anywhere on the application. The last application the Mairie received without gites specified was refused because they only seem to be granting permission for gites, i.e. tourism. General new housing seems to be restricted to lottissments (small estates within the confines of a village/town). So we have had to get the architect to change the dossier to remove 'logement' and replace it with 'gite'.

29th April 2004

The man from the government environment agency came to check the position of our new septic tank soakaway. Apparently they used to do the soil studies but not a private firm does it, and they come and check (occasionally ?). Got the thumbs up. Obviously something is happening with our planning application if the department have sent an inspector.

6th May 2004

Visited the Tourist Board regarding our new gites. Basically just paperwork and administration stuff. The French have alot of administration.

18th May 2004

We received a letter from the planning office about our Permis de Construire. Judging from the translation it says that we will definitely receive a decision by the 23 July 2004, Normally there is a statutory limit of 2 months for the process, and if you don't receive a decision by that date then you get permission by default. However, for some reason there is a delay for an extra month, so our maximum goes to 3 months. Not sure why, but it still seems better than the planning system in England.

30th May 2004

Just for reference an extract of our 'Permis de Construire' showing the proposed external view of the two new gites

7th July 2004

The Permis de Construire has arrived in the post approved. Hurrah.

26^th July 2004

We had a meeting with the builders today. Because of the high price of the work and the withdrawl of most of the grants, I'm am going to do a large proportion of the internal works to save money. The builder wasn't that happy, but c'est la vie. We signed the devi for the major works and he will be starting at the beginning of October 2004, once we are empty.

2^nd September 2004

Finished clearing all the old junk from upstairs in the barn and removed old steel sliding gate from the front ready for the builders who are starting at the beginning of October. Some of the floorboards were a bit rotten and there was evidence of woodworm. I think I may have to get the garden spray out and dowse everything with woodworm treatment before the plasterboard and insulation gets fitted.

 4:27:24 PM   Gite Renovation